tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post3110773136979712818..comments2024-03-14T11:50:14.761-04:00Comments on DarwinCatholic: George RR Martin critiques Tolkien on WarDarwinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-30663878476680722422016-06-04T07:19:42.607-04:002016-06-04T07:19:42.607-04:00Couldn't agree more. Tolkien indeed was a myth...Couldn't agree more. Tolkien indeed was a myth-maker. War of the Ring I believe is a war of mythic proportions for violence in a strict sense is a cosmogonic theme. The events follow even from the Beginning of the Story. Anyway, it's a war that had to happen and be fought. Sauron was the last personalized mythological (but not human) form of a very concrete particular evil. After his final defeat, he's impotent and can't affect the world any longer. Tolkien relied on the theory of meaning of Owen Barfield, particularly meaning in mythologies, where the original meaning is divided and leads to abstraction. Sauron is reduced to "a shadow, a remembrance of malicious will". The cosmic conditions of Arda in contrast to ours, allow this to happen. Had to happen. The Ring was after all Sauron's investment of his original native power. Placing yourself in an object is dangerous. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08174563902656459658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-40065645799893776812014-05-05T21:13:56.573-04:002014-05-05T21:13:56.573-04:00"It's sad to say, but I do think there ar...<i>"It's sad to say, but I do think there are things worth fighting for."<br /><br />Why is this sad to say? What kind of world would it be if nothing was worth fighting for?</i><br /><br />The Game of Thrones world would be that world where nothing is worth fighting for.<br /><br />Hence why I don't care for it.Sparkynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-25322591336096229302014-05-03T23:12:35.176-04:002014-05-03T23:12:35.176-04:00Adam,
Fair enough.
It seems to me that Martin ...Adam,<br /><br />Fair enough. <br /><br />It seems to me that Martin is careful not to say that he considers Tolkien a bad writer -- though he is explicitly contrasting what he's doing with what he perceives Tolkien to be doing.<br /><br />Also, I think you're right that a lot of fantasy writers write about "battles between good and evil" without having Tolkien's implicit theological background.Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-11061963016169600922014-05-03T23:08:28.083-04:002014-05-03T23:08:28.083-04:00"It's sad to say, but I do think there ar...<i>"It's sad to say, but I do think there are things worth fighting for."<br /><br />Why is this sad to say? What kind of world would it be if nothing was worth fighting for?</i><br /><br />Yeah, it seems to me like that "it's sad to say" suggests a very large difference in viewpoint. Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-28521324889730719952014-05-03T07:07:37.464-04:002014-05-03T07:07:37.464-04:00Tolkien knew war up close and personal. He hated ...Tolkien knew war up close and personal. He hated it with an undying passion after his experiences on the Western Front, but he also realized it was sometimes necessary. However, he also understood that War changed the men who fought it, sometimes for the worse, and that it also changed societies, sometimes for the worse. <br /><br />These hard bought insights helped Tolkien create an endlessly fascinating world where a huge conflict was brining rapid change, just as the Great War did to the world Tolkien was born into.Donald R. McClareyhttp://the-american-catholic.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-86012469476954385092014-05-02T16:18:34.589-04:002014-05-02T16:18:34.589-04:00I agree with your post, but I'm not sure that ...I agree with your post, but I'm not sure that Martin is criticizing Tolkien as strongly as you suggest. He says, regarding the War of the Rings as the template of all fantasy epic wars:<br /><br />"I'm not sure that it's a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that."<br /><br />This is all true. Also, it seems to me that some writers adopt this model while still not really believing in the possibility of such a divine struggle. They do not share the same understanding of sin and grace that Tolkien did, leading their stories to seem more shallow (The Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind comes to mind).<br /><br />All that said, I like The Lord of the Rings much more than a Song of Ice and Fire :).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15355126072134129502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-85561101999401255392014-05-02T16:15:36.222-04:002014-05-02T16:15:36.222-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Caitlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01466771774001309549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-17989667903556679892014-05-02T13:46:35.989-04:002014-05-02T13:46:35.989-04:00"It's sad to say, but I do think there ar..."It's sad to say, but I do think there are things worth fighting for."<br /><br />Why is this sad to say? What kind of world would it be if nothing was worth fighting for?Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12507330852895229468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-7327936600673051872014-05-02T13:33:52.079-04:002014-05-02T13:33:52.079-04:00Exactly right. One of the things I think is often ...Exactly right. One of the things I think is often overlooked about Tolkien's story is that it's entirely about a kind of struggle with evil that victory in war cannot end. There's a sense in which nobody is warring with Sauron, because war with Sauron is a war that only Sauron could win -- and even, should all odds be defied and Sauron beaten, it would just set up a Sauron-substitute and start everything over again. Nothing about the war itself even comes close to unsettling Sauron's position, and everything in the actual wars is really defensive maneuver in the face of aggression from Sauron's pawns. And this is, as you say, because the struggle with Sauron isn't a war in our sense at all: the closest analogue is not any human war but the struggle against evil throughout all human life.Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06698839146562734910noreply@blogger.com