tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post3675209248082826898..comments2024-03-28T17:53:43.541-04:00Comments on DarwinCatholic: Education and American ProgressDarwinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-59947817893216249872008-08-07T14:01:00.000-04:002008-08-07T14:01:00.000-04:00Bearing,I don't think I did a good job of teasing ...Bearing,<BR/><BR/>I don't think I did a good job of teasing this out, but it seems to me that Brooks isn't all that clear on what it is that he thinks is the problem. On the one hand, he treats it as a problem with education. On the other, he claims that many of the problems people are having are already evident at age five, by which point people haven't really progressed at all in education, but have been very much formed by their families and culture.<BR/><BR/>Clearly, the benefits that are normally derived from a strong family and culture are a prerequisite for learning and hard work later in life. <BR/><BR/>As for the Gene Expression writer's point about Hispanics -- I don't actually think there's a whole lot to it. (I was bringing it up to say that I don't think that's it, though glancing back I'm not sure I did a good job of that.) There has been a massive problem with family breakdown among some Hispanic sub cultures over the last 20 years -- but there's also a tendency for Hispanics to vanish into the mainstream culture and stop marking themselves down as Hispanic. (Which is pretty much the situation with me and even my mom's generation.)Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-26486954174648720992008-08-07T13:30:00.000-04:002008-08-07T13:30:00.000-04:00I think anyone interested in this topic should rea...I think anyone interested in this topic should read John Taylor Gatto’s book The <A HREF="http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/index.htm" REL="nofollow">Underground History of American Education</A> (you can purchase it, but he offers it online for free as well), or listen to his <A HREF="http://www.edflix.org/gatto.htm" REL="nofollow">online presentations</A> where he covers basically the same material.<BR/><BR/>I confess that initially it strikes one as a bit conspiratorial, and I am sure there are valid criticisms of his work, but he’s got something very important to say on the topic and it’s worth listening too…for anyone who’s interested.<BR/><BR/>If you don't know who Gatto is, here's a <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto" REL="nofollow">quick bio</A> (though I suspect most of this crowd may already be familiar).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-7687944839750007362008-08-07T11:22:00.000-04:002008-08-07T11:22:00.000-04:00Likewise programmers today are blissfully ignorant...<I>Likewise programmers today are blissfully ignorant of C, let alone Assembly Language.</I><BR/><BR/>No programmer is blissfully ignorant of C. Ignorant, perhaps, but not blissful because C is a wonderful language. :) Now Assembly you can throw in the river.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-81862698549784250492008-08-07T08:52:00.000-04:002008-08-07T08:52:00.000-04:00I sense a little bit of confusion in this post -- ...I sense a little bit of confusion in this post -- a failure to distinguish between two quite distinct (not in conflict, just distinct) values.<BR/><BR/>(1) Valuing <EM>higher</EM> education: the skills that will help a child achieve highly in school and go on to college.<BR/><BR/>(2) Valuing strong families that raise their children with a good work ethic and good character.<BR/><BR/>The quote you pulled out that refers to Hispanic immigrants: OK, so maybe, as ParaPundit says, Hispanics don't tend to "embrace" higher education even unto the 4th generation. This does not, however, mean that they don't have strong families; maybe the opposite; and if so, it's not a "cultural breakdown" but the bringing in of a still-traditional culture stream.<BR/><BR/>I remember when I was a freshman in college, at orientation, a speaker told us that Hispanic males were the demographic group least likely to finish college, and most likely to take a long time when they do finish -- this was 16 years ago and I cannot attribute this, I am sorry -- and she, at least, attributed that directly to the still-strong family structure and sense of family obligation which conflicted with the (essentially individualistic) lifestyle of going to college full-time. <BR/><BR/>At the time, college freshman that I was, I thought, "That's too bad. They should get over that whole 'family values' thing and learn to live their own lives."<BR/><BR/>Older, married, with children of my own, I have changed my tune. Valuing "higher" education is, indeed good. And it does not necessarily exclude a strong family structure. But I look around my urban neighborhood, and I see plenty of immigrant families -- families that are intact, Dad and Mom living together with their own children, and most of the time Grandma and/or Grandpa, or a teenage aunt, lives there too, multiple generations living under one roof. If I have to pick one or the other, I'll take valuing the traditional family structure over valuing "higher education." In some ways these kids who play with my kids are building more human capital -- if you want to call it that -- than any suburban child stuck in high-end day care all day, living across the country from extended family (but, no doubt, where the schools are excellent).bearinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953735060133330755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-26894430922907546912008-08-06T21:00:00.000-04:002008-08-06T21:00:00.000-04:00We would come a long way toward reforming educatio...We would come a long way toward reforming education if we rediscovered what I take to be fundamental aims of education: the formation of virtue and vocation.<BR/><BR/>By virtue I mean the habitual dispensation toward the good, and we can further distinguish virtue into the intellectual virtues, the moral virtues, and the physical virtues. By vocation I mean the exercise of the particular talents and gifts we have in light of our particular strengths and weaknesses. By formation of virtue I grow to be what a human being should be; by the formation of vocation I grow to me who I should be. <BR/><BR/>Instruction in the intellectual virtues teaches us to think accurately. The study of reading, writing, and arithmetic form our minds to use words and mathematical symbols with accuracy, clarity, and precision. I agree that these subjects make up the basics, for they set the stage, the foundational framework, through which the mind seeks to know truth. The study of literature, music, art, history, science, economics, and so forth teach the mind to think literarily, musically, artistically, historically, scientifically, economically, etc, building on the basic framework.<BR/><BR/>Instruction in the moral virtues teaches us to act morally, respond appropriately to what is good and to what it evil. The development of the will, the formation of conscience, and the teaching of how to love would also fall in this category. I would also include the formation of appropriate affections and their proper ordering. T.S. Eliot wrote the prayer in Ash Wednesday, “Teach us to care and not to care; teach us to sit still.”<BR/><BR/>The habit of sitting still brings us to the instruction in the physical virtues. Here we train our bodies to grow stronger, faster, healthier, more vital, and more in our control. Included in the physical virtues might be the instruction on good eating and drinking and on the enjoyment of pleasure, the study of dancing, sailing, digging, gardening, fencing, and the mortification of the flesh.<BR/><BR/>One of the marks of modern education is the goal of making education easy. Unfortunately, we don’t grow in virtue by complete easy tasks. Considering how children individually learn is one thing, and fits with my idea of vocation, but robbing a curriculum of its challenges is another thing, and dangerous.<BR/><BR/>Human beings are not spreadsheets or machines, but our educational system largely treats us as such. If our educational institutions treated people as people, both in light of human nature and personal vocation, I think we’d progress a great deal in reforming education. Families have a natural sense to do this, but as Darwin notes, the family has been put on the sidelines in the game. Time for them to take the field.Kyle Cupphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14607703830461449390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-22004530594808150172008-08-06T16:57:00.000-04:002008-08-06T16:57:00.000-04:00things that seem rather intuitive to me but I'm to...<I>things that seem rather intuitive to me but I'm told they are hard - but I struggle with setting up a router.</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, I hear you there. Me too.<BR/><BR/>Though the thing is, because I'm in marketing analytics, I end up having to spend a lot of time trying to explain data methodologies to people. And a lot of them, though they've spent a lot of time in school, just can't seem to grasp this kind of highly detailed, systematic and analytical thinking. Maybe it's that some people just _can't_ get it, but it seems to me that if properly educated, most people can.<BR/><BR/><I> There really is a fundamental disconnect between the working elite and the common workers. It is always assumed that this gap is primarily represented in skills, and there is some truth to this. But we would also expect to see this gap replicated in Europe, and we aren't seeing it on the income side of the ledger.</I><BR/><BR/>Though there's an extent to which the education gap is probably not as wide in Europe. The couple people I've worked with who are products of the European educational system (and ditto for those from India) are much better educated than most of the run-of-the-mill public school and state university graduates around here -- better educated but not necessarily any smarter.<BR/><BR/>I dunno... <BR/><BR/>Two of the things I find it very hard not to believe are that I would be perfectly capable of doing (and getting to) most of the executive roles I see around here (and given that they're fifteen years down the road from me, I guess the jury will be out for a while on that one) and that there's nothing terribly special about me, and so just about anyone could do what I do. And so it usually seems to me like with a solid upbringing and education, most people can get almost anywhere.<BR/><BR/>However, many would argue that the evidence is against one or both of those being true.Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-78598260753946383482008-08-06T16:12:00.000-04:002008-08-06T16:12:00.000-04:00As is hinted in your reply, it is surprising how l...As is hinted in your reply, it is surprising how little knowledge of a person's intelligence in one area will be indicative of his intelligence in another. I was so shocked entering the business world and seeing the grammatically poor memos, etc. I can do complex database work involving multiple joins - things that seem rather intuitive to me but I'm told they are hard - but I struggle with setting up a router. This has mostly to do with me not doing a whole lot of work with routers.<BR/><BR/>I don't think anyone, or at least too many people, are against teaching the liberal arts. I was more teasing Brooks as he fashions himself among the educated elite. There really is a fundamental disconnect between the working elite and the common workers. It is always assumed that this gap is primarily represented in skills, and there is some truth to this. But we would also expect to see this gap replicated in Europe, and we aren't seeing it on the income side of the ledger. I think where it is most apparent though is where you and I see it: many of the elites are not all that smart; some in fact are quite dumb.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-74245255119474299322008-08-06T15:50:00.000-04:002008-08-06T15:50:00.000-04:00MZ,I wouldn't necessarily say more liberal arts ma...MZ,<BR/><BR/>I wouldn't necessarily say more liberal arts majors -- in fact I'm thinking strictly in terms of K-12 education. (I'm dubious that most people actually need or want more than 13 years of formal schooling.) When I'm talking "liberally educated" and "classically educated" I'm thinking of a curriculum which emphasizes first reading, writing and basic math; then later history, arts/literature, sciences, logic and higher math.<BR/><BR/>Given that what Brooks seems worried about is the inability of many in society of function as what I've heard some call "knowledge workers", it seems to me that it's these basics that we really need to work on. (And that we used to be really good at before the 70s.)<BR/><BR/>Maybe I'm projecting our problems around here out a bit, but I routinely deal with BAs and even MBAs who have so much trouble with written expression (and reading comprehension) that they can't write comprehensible emails, and so much trouble with relational logic that they can't understand how to analyze data or use a database. <BR/><BR/>I'm pretty sure that most people could master these things just fine, but they'd need to be taught basic logical and verbal skills from a much earlier age. By 30, it's getting a bit late.Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-54012409594927358652008-08-06T15:04:00.000-04:002008-08-06T15:04:00.000-04:00I find much of the economic history to be dubious....I find much of the economic history to be dubious. Easily the most fundamental factor in U.S. achievement was the fact that the U.S. had the only industrial base after WWII that was left undamaged. Canada didn't have any invaders as well, and they also enjoyed pretty spectacular growth.<BR/><BR/>The bigger thing that bothers me though is the pretention that if only we would have more liberal arts majors, we would be better off. While you can find examples like Gates who had technical prowess, many of the captains of industry are not technically trained. (Both Gates and Dell dropped out of college it should be noted.) As I've lamented many times, there are big assumptions over what people need to know to work on cutting edge technology, and those assumptions just aren't true. I could (and am in the process of doing actually) teach my 7-year-old how to set up a computer. He doesn't need any knowledge of electromagnetism, transistors, Core2 tech, or even binary operator knowledge to do this. Likewise programmers today are blissfully ignorant of C, let alone Assembly Language.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com