tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post4337893473618489743..comments2024-03-28T17:53:43.541-04:00Comments on DarwinCatholic: The Strange Insecurities of the Sort of Middle ClassDarwinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-88915435234581321482015-01-28T21:43:49.356-05:002015-01-28T21:43:49.356-05:00There may be another reason readers of a Catholic ...There may be another reason readers of a Catholic blog might not want to self-identify as rich: regularly saying "...he has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent empty away."<br /><br />And even though you know what you mean, there is always that niggle in the back of your head...Frednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-85473995243299620832015-01-25T15:01:45.226-05:002015-01-25T15:01:45.226-05:00BearingHusband,
It's an interesting point. B...BearingHusband,<br /><br />It's an interesting point. Being a fan of Victorian novels, I have a certain admiration for the goal of doing well and out of that building up to a point of having a family house that is owned outright and a set of family investments which can support future generations at a modest level.<br /><br />However, in our current culture, the idea of building up wealth in order to pass on a modest stability is seen as almost immoral, with some people advocating that it be nearly impossible to pass on money via inheritance. <br /><br />I wonder if a lot of that is the result of the needs of a consumer society. Must keep the wheels rolling.Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-28341288570696438292015-01-25T00:26:22.683-05:002015-01-25T00:26:22.683-05:00I am, of course, completely complicit in this. I ...I am, of course, completely complicit in this. I invent the new and better things that make people unhappy with the old ones. BearingHusbandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-39767230279022445692015-01-24T23:48:00.599-05:002015-01-24T23:48:00.599-05:00The basis of a consumer society is that you never ...The basis of a consumer society is that you never have enough, therefore you are never rich. There is always more to get. No matter how good we have it, someone wants to convince us that our current state is lacking. Telling people that what they have already is great will not boost next quarter's earnings. I live better than ancient royalty in objective terms, but I still have envy when I think about the wealth of the senior VP's.BearingHusbandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-4412354273839658302015-01-24T20:58:59.923-05:002015-01-24T20:58:59.923-05:00"Have you ever wondered what it's like to...<a href="http://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/stop-complaining-zathbog-planet-cibwarv-inflating-u-s-housing-prices?mbid=social_tumblr" rel="nofollow">"Have you ever wondered what it's like to have fewer gall bladders than stomachs?"</a>Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04720409839023747889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-8203628049040353312015-01-24T12:36:34.163-05:002015-01-24T12:36:34.163-05:00And I don't know anybody with a vacation home....And I don't know anybody with a vacation home. Maybe that's an upper mid-west thing? <br /><br />Because I have read a bit about the decline of the unions and how it was totally normal for people to have second homes and now it is becoming harder to do as the manufacturing moves to the non-union South. I, being from the South, have always been incredulous that owning a second house was a normal, middle-class thing to do. The math on this endeavor is still fuzzy to me, but these articles made it seem expected.<br /><br />Also I think the 1984 table on the wikipedia page is a much more reasonable breakout. On the 2014 table, the argument is that more than half the country is poor and have not attained middle class status. That's an absurd argument. That table looks like the class/income levels for NYC, not America as a whole.Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13472686909226073213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-29411012738527359072015-01-23T23:09:28.487-05:002015-01-23T23:09:28.487-05:00Re lifestyle, so much varies culturally... Darwin ...Re lifestyle, so much varies culturally... Darwin mentions "vacation homes" as a marker for being rich. Up here in MN, though, it's totally a middle-class thing to have a (modest) vacation home up on a lake somewhere. Maybe that is an expectatipn that a previous generation had, but "the cabin on the lake" most definitely does not mark you as particularly wealthy.bearinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953735060133330755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-60485357749023721512015-01-23T23:03:58.631-05:002015-01-23T23:03:58.631-05:00I was thinking of the word in a totally different ...I was thinking of the word in a totally different context, R^2 in curve-fitting -- and physical processes usually being more predictable than human behavior, 0.9+ would be expected. But (not knowing any better) I took the author's word for it when they said 0.5 meant not much correlation.bearinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953735060133330755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-28491939885212906812015-01-23T22:47:25.089-05:002015-01-23T22:47:25.089-05:00@bearing
Interesting. I come from a social science...@bearing<br />Interesting. I come from a social science background myself. What's considered a strong correlation in engineering?Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17711322836811252125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-90931222595756556912015-01-23T22:03:47.532-05:002015-01-23T22:03:47.532-05:00Kate,
I've always assumed that the reason wel...Kate,<br /><br /><i>I've always assumed that the reason well-off people prefer to identify themselves as "middle class" is because of a perceived loss of credibility when speaking to a broad audience. </i><br /><br />Something of that, certainly.<br /><br /><i>Would you be shy about discussing your net worth when addressing only those who you *know* to have a similar net worth? </i><br /><br />Yes, actually. I tend to be extremely reticent about that, and my experience is that others, even with very similar incomes, mostly are too. (Which also makes it a bit hard to tell exactly how similar other people's incomes are.) The one example is if you're actively discussing career advice such as whether to accept a job offer. But it's definitely not general conversation. Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-19347818231524510832015-01-23T21:58:05.006-05:002015-01-23T21:58:05.006-05:00Am "upper middle" by these Wikipedia def...<i>Am "upper middle" by these Wikipedia definitions, though</i><br /><br />I was nodding in agreement to the Wikipedia income tables, until I realized that I was looking at the 1984 ones. The 2014 ones look pretty crazy to me. Yowza. Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-62743133897708923382015-01-23T21:23:02.937-05:002015-01-23T21:23:02.937-05:00I am astounded by the income chart on the wiki pag...I am astounded by the income chart on the wiki page. On what planet can you be considered lower middle class with an income of 100K? That's crazy. And I'll admit that seeing my income deemed lower class makes me a little sad. Upper lower class, but lower class just the same. Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13472686909226073213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-87860921369923932132015-01-23T21:06:32.554-05:002015-01-23T21:06:32.554-05:00Coming from an engineering background rather than ...Coming from an engineering background rather than the social sciences, I'm trained to think "correlation of 0.5" is not high at all. My apologies...bearinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953735060133330755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-19173087567588637662015-01-23T20:48:46.743-05:002015-01-23T20:48:46.743-05:00@Kate
I agree with your analysis in the case of a...@Kate<br /><br />I agree with your analysis in the case of audiences of non-intimates. I think relatively high-income people tend to avoid discussing money matters even within their in-group, though. Overtly signalling high status relative to your associates can't be good policy.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17711322836811252125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-83237851987485451282015-01-23T20:33:29.252-05:002015-01-23T20:33:29.252-05:00I've always assumed that the reason well-off p...I've always assumed that the reason well-off people prefer to identify themselves as "middle class" is because of a perceived loss of credibility when speaking to a broad audience. Would you be shy about discussing your net worth when addressing only those who you *know* to have a similar net worth? I'd wager you are more reticent with a mixed audience or an audience of unknowns--as you have via the blog, for example. <br /><br />I don't think it's a culture of envy as much as it is a matter of in-group/out-group dynamics. To admit to living at a standard well above the median is to admit to not being part of the 'in-group' of the majority. Which is an odd sort of in-group, I suppose. <br /><br />For the more politically minded, identifying as "middle-class" may also be an expression of a desire to duck and cover when class rhetoric starts getting slung around against the very rich and the very poor. Easier not to be a "maker" or a "taker" in that atmosphere. Katehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03787892622804373968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-6892745295760693282015-01-23T19:52:45.241-05:002015-01-23T19:52:45.241-05:000.5 is a strong correlation. The author does expli...0.5 is a strong correlation. The author does explicitly describe it as a "relatively low" correlation, which is odd. Even the adjusted 0.3 correlation isn't low.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17711322836811252125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-54508567156444351222015-01-23T18:51:19.940-05:002015-01-23T18:51:19.940-05:00sorry, link
heresorry, link <br /><br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class" rel="nofollow"> here</a>bearinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953735060133330755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-50762678995521963162015-01-23T18:50:35.968-05:002015-01-23T18:50:35.968-05:00Am "upper middle" by these Wikipedia def...Am "upper middle" by these Wikipedia definitions, thoughbearinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953735060133330755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-70548331876983320362015-01-23T15:42:10.905-05:002015-01-23T15:42:10.905-05:00And here is a nifty net worth calculator which mig...And here is a nifty net worth calculator which might be a better indicator of whether a person feels rich or not:<br /><br />http://money.cnn.com/tools/networth_ageincome/<br /><br />Even though our income has been relatively low over the years--middle class low, not poor low--I think our net worth stacks up quite nicely especially given our age.Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13472686909226073213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-8109934191248800482015-01-23T14:58:13.096-05:002015-01-23T14:58:13.096-05:00That they are not correlated doesn't really su...That they are not correlated doesn't really surprise me. It is hard to save money even when it seems like you have plenty to save. It reminds me of that article a few years ago (whose details are just fuzzy enough in my mind to make a Google search futile) where it was explained that this family with a spectacular income wasn't rich because they didn't have any left after they spent it all. <br /><br />In my own budget, there are a couple thousand dollars a year that I should theoretically be able to save, but I don't know where it goes. It always seems to vanish.<br /><br />I've read something about being "merely rich" and being wealthy which might be the distinction most people fail to make. You can be rich without being wealthy. Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13472686909226073213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-54102135715672329792015-01-23T14:40:08.917-05:002015-01-23T14:40:08.917-05:00This says they're not really correlated at all...This says they're not really correlated at all. About 0.5<br /><br />http://www.sagepub.com/upm-data/5008_Gartner_Chapter_5.pdfbearinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953735060133330755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-63471029096987815732015-01-23T14:39:11.361-05:002015-01-23T14:39:11.361-05:00As I search for a definition of "rich," ...As I search for a definition of "rich," I find myself wondering what the correlation between income percentile and net worth percentile is. bearinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953735060133330755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-7202138546889786992015-01-23T14:36:08.670-05:002015-01-23T14:36:08.670-05:00I had the bizarre experience of growing up in two ...I had the bizarre experience of growing up in two homes, thanks to a divorce, in which one parent owned flashy cars and went on expensive vacations and took us out to nice restaurants pretty much every week, and the other parent worried aloud about making ends meet, fretted about how long it would be before retirement was possible, and never took a single vacation that I remember.bearinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953735060133330755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-57592171750776212762015-01-23T14:31:50.406-05:002015-01-23T14:31:50.406-05:00It is an interesting question of how exactly you d...It is an interesting question of how exactly you define rich. Is it a question of income, assets or lifestyle? The definition of rich I have always heard is that you are not dependent on your income for survival. Rich means you could live off your assets if necessary. Of course I don't know how high your standard of living is supposed to be while living off your assets. By that standard, my parents are rich, but they are also very close to retirement which muddies the picture. By that definition, almost all retirees are rich which is a dubious argument.<br /><br />Anyway...<br /><br />One of the stranger developments of my life is that my parents are quite well off now or rich depending on how you define it, but this certainly was not the case when I was their dependent. It is a weird place to be.Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13472686909226073213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-15033726945550356072015-01-23T13:52:06.773-05:002015-01-23T13:52:06.773-05:00I guess, in part, I'd have to come to some sor...I guess, in part, I'd have to come to some sort of understanding of what I mean by "rich". <br /><br />Our family is in the top 20% of incomes, so it would be pretty off not to admit to being at least upper middle class.<br /><br />I suppose at some class level I vaguely associate "rich" with owning expensive cars and vacation homes and fully packaged vacations. The sort of lifestyle one sees in the style pages of the Wall Street Journal. At a guess, I think in this part of the country you'd need a household income of $250k+ for that. However, that's putting you in the top 1-2% in terms of household income. Are there really only 1-2% in the US who are rich?<br /><br />I guess I'd tend to think of us as "well off" rather than rich, but that's probably heavily influenced both by what I'm comparing us to in our immediate surroundings and the current prejudices of the culture.Darwinnoreply@blogger.com