tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post4907568007874407845..comments2024-03-28T17:53:43.541-04:00Comments on DarwinCatholic: How Far Can We Go?Darwinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-85477835113339667992012-02-20T17:23:03.722-05:002012-02-20T17:23:03.722-05:00In either event, the better response is not to jus...<i>In either event, the better response is not to just walk away, but to use the occasion to explain how tricky sexual morality can be; even if the priest did mean to convey the wrong thing, to use the occasion to twist his words back to the right thing.</i><br /><br />You mean subverting the priest's words to what you want them to be?<br /><br />No, she did the thing a good Catholic girl does when she thinks someone with authority she's required to respect seems to be mistaken-- she privately spoke to him about it. He stuck to his guns. She refused to subvert him, but refused to teach what she <i>knew</i> wasn't right.Foxfierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161683096247890834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-90021052516881459012012-02-16T20:05:30.842-05:002012-02-16T20:05:30.842-05:00I'm not saying that this particular priest mea...I'm not saying that this particular priest meant it in this way. Out of charity, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but it is possible that he was giving them sexual license.<br /><br />In either event, the better response is not to just walk away, but to use the occasion to explain how tricky sexual morality can be; even if the priest did mean to convey the wrong thing, to use the occasion to twist his words back to the right thing.Benderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09322135500288738561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-32035677083164896082012-02-15T18:31:24.220-05:002012-02-15T18:31:24.220-05:00What the priest may have been saying was not what ...What the priest may have been saying was <i>not</i> what the kids were hearing, is the point.Foxfierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161683096247890834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-70131902253060208242012-02-15T18:21:10.248-05:002012-02-15T18:21:10.248-05:00the priest walked in and told a bunch of high scho...<i>the priest walked in and told a bunch of high school kids that anything was OK, as long as "you really love who you're doing it with."</i><br />_______________<br /><br />That is 100 percent absolutely true. And good Catholic doctrine.<br /><br />As Augustine said, "Love, and then do what you will."<br /><br />The real question is -- What is love?<br /><br />The real problem that we have in our hyper-sexualized society is a gross misunderstanding of the concept and nature of love, as well as truth.<br /><br />Sexual activity outside of marriage, whether with another person or yourself, is contrary to love and contrary to the truth of the human person. It is the objectification of the human person.<br /><br />If you "really love who you're with," then you won't be jumping into the back seat for a joy ride with them. And if someone asks you to do so, it ain't love, it is treating the other as an object to be used. It is the antithesis of love, no matter how much he says, "oh, I really love you, babe," even if you've been going together for two or three years.<br /><br />If we are ever to instill in people a proper understanding of the moral truths concerning human sexuality, we must first construct a foundation of learning about love.Benderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09322135500288738561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-8689989161328655342012-02-10T20:51:27.935-05:002012-02-10T20:51:27.935-05:00Church Buddy,
I don't believe you're deli...Church Buddy,<br /><br />I don't believe you're delivering "bad news" that Foxfier is unaware of, so do please mind the tone. I can't have people taking liberties.<br /><br />Indeed, for a man to intentionally achieve satisfaction outside the context of intercourse is a sin, in that it is an attempt to separate the pleasure of intercourse from its unitive and procreative aspects. However, at the same time, a NFP using couple certainly has the experience to know how they can and can't express their love and affection without getting themselves into trouble. Not to say that such things are easy, but I don't think they need winking hints. (Also, just as a quick anatomical point: "womb" is a term generally used for the uterus, which is a location that no man is going to directly reach with this "seed" spilling.)<br /><br />I hesitate to criticize someone for something they find to work well in helping them maintain a chaste disposition -- however I'll admit the idea of calling chaperones upon oneself seems a little odd to me. Of course, my own experience is of my wife and I having both successfully waited until our wedding night despite having traveled alone together on a number of occasions during the years we were dating and engaged.Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-57624568038033314792012-02-10T20:39:36.264-05:002012-02-10T20:39:36.264-05:00The Catholic Church as always taught tha spilling ...<i>The Catholic Church as always taught tha spilling the seed anywhere outside the womb is at least objectively a mortal sin.</i><br /><br />I suppose this would be a problem for married couples who knew so little about sex as to be unable to distinguish NFP from onanism.<br /><br />I always find it interesting how these anachronistic and garbled factoids about what the Church supposedly teaches float around without any regard for things that the Church provably <i>has</i> taught, like the importance of disposition, deliberation, and intention, or the capacity of circumstances to qualify species of actions, and so forth.Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06698839146562734910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-71443730766225487522012-02-10T20:27:38.307-05:002012-02-10T20:27:38.307-05:00I like the idea of chaperones.
It has been used fo...I like the idea of chaperones.<br />It has been used for centuries with great success. And even now couples madly in love and soon to be married can do a lot of things that simulate the same effect as that of a chaperone. I know of a case there the woman actually rented a room with older women. The age difference helped and there was really no place to evem think about making love.<br /><br />I know the couple well and know that both were virgins when they married.<br /><br />Church BuddyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-15187704767227041452012-02-10T20:16:22.377-05:002012-02-10T20:16:22.377-05:00The Catholic Church as always taught tha spilling ...The Catholic Church as always taught tha spilling the seed anywhere outside the womb is at least objectively a mortal sin.<br />Sorry for the bad news<br /><br />Church BuddyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-32676021545921665232012-02-10T20:08:48.659-05:002012-02-10T20:08:48.659-05:00'cus God forbid you make love to your wife, or...'cus God forbid you make love to your wife, or want to make love but refrain because <i>you know it's not wise at this point</i>... yeah, that's sinful.Foxfierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161683096247890834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-19828617529169027122012-02-10T20:03:12.692-05:002012-02-10T20:03:12.692-05:00It seems to me that How far can i go ... is best a...It seems to me that How far can i go ... is best applied to a catholic married couple with 3 kids and using natural family planning. If dating is a temptation how about a married couple next to each other in bed without much clothe on, trying to make love without intercourse. I wager that mortal sins are going to happen especially with the man one way or the other.<br /><br />Church buddyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-29882375591814232272012-02-10T20:01:05.010-05:002012-02-10T20:01:05.010-05:00It seems to me that How far can i go ... is best a...It seems to me that How far can i go ... is best applied to a catholic married couple with 3 kids and using natural family planning. If dating is a temptation how about a married couple next to each other in bed without much clothe on, trying to make love without intercourse. I wager that mortal sins are going to happen especially with the man one way or the other.<br /><br />Church buddyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-56075296665422415152012-02-10T09:06:26.284-05:002012-02-10T09:06:26.284-05:00There are good ways of expressing love and affecti...<i>There are good ways of expressing love and affection in a relationship that will cause sexual arousal </i><br /><br />"Good morning, dear" comes to mind as one that sometime works for me; also "sleep, honey, I've got the kids." ;^)Foxfierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161683096247890834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-46079941127970181122012-02-10T08:57:34.579-05:002012-02-10T08:57:34.579-05:00Anon, I'm generally leery of answers to human ...Anon, I'm generally leery of answers to human interaction that are presented as being "very simple". You're absolutely right that "any act done purposefully to cause sexual arousal outside of marriage is gravely sinful", and two of the most deliberate examples of that are covered in the Catechism: masturbation and the viewing of pornography. Prostitution is also forbidden. But in a relationship, sexual attraction (which is not the same thing as deliberate sexual arousal) is a good and natural response to a member of the opposite sex, per John Paul II in Love and Responsibility. There are good ways of expressing love and affection in a relationship that will cause sexual arousal -- even something as innocuous as holding hands. That's why it's so important for a couple to keep evaluating their level of physical intimacy, to make sure that it's in balance with and not outpacing other intimacies: intellectual, emotional, spiritual. <br /><br />I do agree that if one is holding hands with (or kissing or what have you) someone else simply to experience the thrill of arousal, regardless of any relationship with the other person, then that's clearly using the other person and is wrong. Most relationships don't work that way, however -- I think that most people do have a desire to get to know the other person and to give tangible signs of affection. This is not just a matter of lust (a "disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure" [CCC 2351], which indicates that there can be ordered desires and ordinate enjoyment, depending on one's state in life), but a matter of honestly responding in love to another person.MrsDarwinhttp://darwincatholic.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-64285770958652201272012-02-10T00:00:09.993-05:002012-02-10T00:00:09.993-05:00The rationale behind this book sounds beautiful. ...The rationale behind this book sounds beautiful. I appreciate when the meaning of the gift of self is expressed in discussions about chastity. But I always wonder, in the many efforts that I've heard/read to answer the question, "How far is too far" why the very simple answer is hardly ever said. It's a classical moral theology answer but pretty much answers it all: very simply, any act done to purposely cause sexual arousal outside of marriage is gravely sinful. It may be a hard principle to live by, but if you do, you'll instantly know when your seeking self gratification vs. self donation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-34640437280512026362012-02-09T11:24:51.590-05:002012-02-09T11:24:51.590-05:00Sigh.. the above comment is me, signed in as Darwi...Sigh.. the above comment is me, signed in as Darwin again.MrsDarwinhttp://darwincatholic.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-29251707256024051312012-02-09T11:24:07.748-05:002012-02-09T11:24:07.748-05:00Anonymous, I respectfully but strongly disagree. I...Anonymous, I respectfully but strongly disagree. It's just not serious to claim that a couple should never be left alone before marriage. For one thing, there just aren't enough chaperones in the world to supervise every single couple. More seriously, not every couple is at the same state of their relationship. Perhaps teenagers need to date in groups, though I wouldn't state that as an absolute. Privacy is essential to developing a relationship, especially one growing toward marriage that is based in exclusivity. <br /><br />Your comment seems to indicate that you didn't read the post any farther than the title, and that really isn't conducive to serious discussion.Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-85260944223566416572012-02-08T12:17:39.510-05:002012-02-08T12:17:39.510-05:00My marriage came about in part because the Navy ha...My marriage came about in part because the Navy had the same theory, Anon-- that young men and women aren't to be trusted. Their solution of requiring "liberty buddies" in groups of three or more meant that I always ended up checking out with the same group of folks, including the guy I (thank You!) married.<br /><br />Encouraging group activities is a great idea, but trying to enforce chaperoned activities just backfires. Heck, given the option, I would've spent most of my time alone or jumping between groups....Foxfierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161683096247890834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-82655517157928134662012-02-08T12:00:48.857-05:002012-02-08T12:00:48.857-05:00Neither guy or gal no matter how pure they would l...Neither guy or gal no matter how pure they would like to be can win the game of “how far can you go: You cannot fool mother nature ….the answer has always been that boy and girl just cannot be trusted to be left alone before marriage no matter what …..so let us return to the serious use of chaperones. Before marriage there is no absolute reason that a couple have to be left completely alone. After marriage they can be alone together forever until the kids come along. If someone would write a book on the ingenious use of chaperones, it would help more that a 1000 books on “how far can you go”Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-75226190409620957242012-02-03T18:06:10.533-05:002012-02-03T18:06:10.533-05:00Actually, we worked really hard to write something...Actually, we worked really hard to write something that would be easily readable for teenagers but that wouldn't feel like teen-lit to a young adult, or even someone in their late 20s or 30s.<br />The feedback we've received indicates we've succeeded. I'd recommend it to anyone.<br />One of our main hopes is that the book will be used in high schools, but we suspect it will be just as helpful for young teachers as for students!Brett Salkeldnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-91926290032506674912012-02-03T14:19:28.579-05:002012-02-03T14:19:28.579-05:00Claire, in some places the tone of the writing see...Claire, in some places the tone of the writing seemed aimed at a teenaged audience, but I think that the relationship model is very sound and generally applicable at any age. There are also several relationship studies provided of couples who are in their twenties or thirties -- at a story level, I really enjoyed the example given of the widowed 34-year-old lawyer who meets the 36-year old doctor and hits it off right away. It would make a great novel premise... :)<br /><br />But perhaps Brett might weigh in again and talk about his target audience?MrsDarwinhttp://darwincatholic.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-71863235112831075772012-02-03T14:14:47.500-05:002012-02-03T14:14:47.500-05:00Here's the back-cover review from Dr. Donald D...Here's the back-cover review from Dr. Donald DeMarco (from National Catholic Register): <br /><br />"The authors are keenly aware of the omnipresence of the secular world and the powerful influence it has on young people. They know that Christianity is countercultural. Therefore, they approach controversial issues such as abstaining from intercourse prior to marriage, masturbation, and the use of contraception very gently and with great sensitivity. Nowhere, however, do they depart from Catholic orthodoxy."<br /><br />"Very gently and with great sensitivity", in my reading, meant that the problems with these issues were spelled out clearly and unequivocally, but without condemnation and brimstone for those who may have fallen into those errors.MrsDarwinhttp://darwincatholic.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-24726900133883296392012-02-03T14:06:49.730-05:002012-02-03T14:06:49.730-05:00Is this book mainly more appropriate for teenagers...Is this book mainly more appropriate for teenagers, or would you say it is also good for those in their late twenties that are dating?Clairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07059262180853028385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-47103604528932972852012-02-03T13:54:44.357-05:002012-02-03T13:54:44.357-05:00Simcha Fisher-
sounds like the priest that drove m...Simcha Fisher-<br />sounds like the priest that drove my mom out of teaching CCD. (Back when she was just a "cool" shop teacher, not a wife or mom.)<br /><br />She was teaching the Church's stuff on sex, and the priest walked in and told a bunch of high school kids that anything was OK, as long as "you really love who you're doing it with."<br />Yeah. What good-hearted kid DOESN'T think they really love someone they want to...er... be intimate with? (Short form: she objected, he insisted, she refused to be involved in teaching any such thing.)Foxfierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161683096247890834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-19484482699754909892012-02-03T13:51:00.061-05:002012-02-03T13:51:00.061-05:00Faithful,
You can also check out Don DeMarco...Faithful,<br /> You can also check out Don DeMarco's review at the National Catholic Register. There is a blurb from it on the back of the book. I don't have it handy, but it says something like "never departs from Catholic orthodoxy." Perhaps Mrs. Darwin could share it here in the comments?Brett Salkeldnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-49432975627845455342012-02-03T13:34:56.330-05:002012-02-03T13:34:56.330-05:00Thanks so much for this review! I'm going to ...Thanks so much for this review! I'm going to order the book right now, for when my kids are older. My whole entire training in sexual purity as a teen was, "If you do things with a boy, it will be like inviting that boy into your someday marital bed, and won't that be awkward with your husband?" Since I fully intended to marry my boyfriend someday, this was not persuasive.Simcha Fishernoreply@blogger.com