tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post6063753414515081373..comments2024-03-28T17:53:43.541-04:00Comments on DarwinCatholic: Voting and the Heap ParadoxDarwinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-29797618052493905062007-12-01T19:36:00.000-05:002007-12-01T19:36:00.000-05:00I agree generally with Scott Carson's understandin...I agree generally with Scott Carson's understanding (including his linked post). I would merely add that it isn't just important to vote against the Nazis; it is often important to vote against the ballot itself. After all, by the time the ballot is printed most of the important decisions have already been made, the ballot and its context being a product of those decisions.<BR/><BR/>In addition to what Scott said I would continue by observing that voting <I>does</I> have a significant impact, though not on the outer world, but rather on the person who votes. Since that is where in point of fact all of the significant impact of an act of voting occurs, that is where the evaluation of that act should be assessed, even if on utilitarian terms. Impact on the outside world is of negligible magnitude in comparison, in Patrick's cost/benefit framework.<BR/><BR/>Finally, I also appreciate Ilion's preemptive verdict of "infantile". Nothing presents a rational argument quite like gratuitous insult.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-76340072183967609352007-11-28T09:57:00.000-05:002007-11-28T09:57:00.000-05:00I must clarify that my example above was just an i...I must clarify that my example above was just an illustration. I vote every time and have so far not been injured in the process. <BR/><BR/>The strict analysis I described leaves out some intangible benefits of voting. For example, we may want our children to see us vote in order to teach them the importance of being good citizens. We get that benefit even if we lose the election.<BR/><BR/>My example also overstates the risk. Yes, I could get hurt while driving to the polling place - but I could also get hurt just by staying at home. It's the <I>marginal change</I> in risk that would have to be considered.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03402788402018206599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-67788795950984635052007-11-27T23:18:00.000-05:002007-11-27T23:18:00.000-05:00It seems to me that you're falling into a fallacy ...It seems to me that you're falling into a fallacy here, the fallacy of decomposition, where you attribute some property of a whole to its various parts.<BR/><BR/>I usually hear this argument from my wife who, whenever I suggest that a single vote "doesn't count" always responds by saying "well, if <I>everybody</I> thought that way, then nobody would vote."<BR/><BR/>But, of course, it is verifiably <I>never</I> the case that <I>nobody</I> votes, so in <I>practical</I> terms a single vote <I>really doesn't count</I> in the sense that an election is going to be determined by a majority of one (of course such an outcome is <I>logically</I> possible, but I don't know that it has ever actually happened in non-rigged elections). It seems irrelevant to say that the election <I>is</I> determined by a whole bunch of "single votes" all added together.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, I think that I do agree that voting is important to do, and I have argued as much <A HREF="http://examinelife.blogspot.com/2005/11/election-day.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>. I vote even knowing that my vote isn't going to have any effect on the outcome, which just goes to show you what a Platonist I really am.Vitae Scrutatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12808120163472036743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-65418713143025111842007-11-27T21:39:00.000-05:002007-11-27T21:39:00.000-05:00Darwin, I like your analysis. I also have been go...Darwin, I like your analysis. I also have been going by an idea something like Patrick's since my early 20's. I felt discouraged by voting because it seemed like my one vote could not possibly make any difference. But I came up with a less elegent version of Patrick's cost-analysis. You never know.<BR/><BR/>I also have since realized that we have no idea just how much our actions affect the world around us. I have had prodigious effect on my life due to apparently minor actions, even simply acts of speech, of others. In fact one single vote can have repercussions we cannot imagine. Moreover, every single vote does make a change in statistics. Over time a single voter voting consistently in a certain way can have more effect than thousands who either do not vote or who change their approach a lot.<BR/><BR/>Grains of sand? Yes. How may grains does it take to start an avalanche?<BR/><BR/>LogEyed RomanLogEyed Romanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13889437392169618869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-45234266679992749012007-11-27T15:32:00.000-05:002007-11-27T15:32:00.000-05:00"It seems non-sensical to say that the casting of ...<I>"It seems non-sensical to say that the casting of any one vote has no effect, when the sum of several of these "no effect" events could be "effect". It we take "no effect" to be 0 and "effect" to be 1, then if we say that individual votes have no effect we are suggesting that 0+0+0+0+0+0=1"<BR/><BR/>Perhaps, someday, you'll look at "Darwinism" in light of this idea.</I><BR/><BR/>I would tend to dispute the contention that "Darwinism" involves a sum greater than the parts, except to the extent that physical science in general limits itself to a subset of reality -- examining only those things that admit to direct and repeatable physical causes.Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-17804922396324762122007-11-27T15:19:00.000-05:002007-11-27T15:19:00.000-05:00It seems to me (and Patrick's comment is in line w...It seems to me (and Patrick's comment is in line with this idea) is that the whole "my vote doesn't count" whine/excuse is but a variation on the infantile demand that the universe revolve around oneself.<BR/><BR/><BR/>"<I>It seems non-sensical to say that the casting of any one vote has no effect, when the sum of several of these "no effect" events could be "effect". It we take "no effect" to be 0 and "effect" to be 1, then if we say that individual votes have no effect we are suggesting that 0+0+0+0+0+0=1</I>"<BR/><BR/>Perhaps, someday, you'll look at "Darwinism" in light of this idea.IlĂonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-76351408507734085912007-11-27T11:30:00.000-05:002007-11-27T11:30:00.000-05:00Very interesting. However I think there is a sens...Very interesting. However I think there is a sense in which the decision to vote or not vote can matter very much. Apply a cost-benefit analysis.<BR/><BR/>First, what are the odds that MY vote will be decisive in a national election? This can be measured statistically. It is very low.<BR/><BR/>Second, what are the odds I will be run over by a truck, mugged, or otherwise harmed while I am on the way to the polling place? This is also measurable. It is also very low - but is it lower than the chance of my vote being decisive?<BR/><BR/>If the chance of my vote being decisive is lower than the chance of my being harmed while in the act of voting, then voting is an irrational thing to do. The cost is greater than the benefit.<BR/><BR/>If fewer people vote then the calculation changes, of course.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03402788402018206599noreply@blogger.com