tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post6698798218596281023..comments2024-03-28T17:53:43.541-04:00Comments on DarwinCatholic: Union Impressions: Rules vs. WorkDarwinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-56688214992001855622011-03-24T14:56:46.507-04:002011-03-24T14:56:46.507-04:00In the very unionized country I live in (not the U...In the very unionized country I live in (not the US) and the very unionized profession I work in, I have to say that I can't recognize any of those examples at all.Rebekkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13536021238594385545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-46833306091509954432011-03-22T13:41:08.288-04:002011-03-22T13:41:08.288-04:00I recently watched 9 days that changed the world a...I recently watched 9 days that changed the world about Pope John Paul II's visit to Poland and all the changes that it helped spark in that country - one of the big ones being the formation of the union Solidarity. The movie - produced by Newt Gingrich, someone I can't imagine is at all pro union in the US - was certainly very pro-Solidarity, and rightly so, I think. I have to wonder though - what is it like there today? Do all unions devolve into what we see in the US where the primary purpose seems to be increasing benefits and protecting the incompetent? Is it the nature of our fallen world that eventually all human entities turn away from their original mission and hopes?Amberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12689104216675201913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-46185028097371871732011-03-20T17:42:44.044-04:002011-03-20T17:42:44.044-04:00Didn't the California DMV go to the Federal mi...Didn't the California DMV go to the Federal minimum wage a couple of years back?Foxfierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161683096247890834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-40061340793817168302011-03-20T17:31:26.843-04:002011-03-20T17:31:26.843-04:00Because other bloggers are distinguishing between ...Because other bloggers are distinguishing between state unions and private employee unions.<br /><br />I'm a member of the local SEIU union. I just started working at the local DMV Call Center, hired in a two-week window between Arnold's hiring freeze and Jerry's. It's the best job I've ever had.<br /><br />DMV rank-and-file -- approx. 20-to-one the most numerous pay schedule on the payroll --- haven't received a monetary raise almost as long as I've been alive. Not COLA, not nothing. That works out to 22 years. We've only managed to get raises through benefits, so I suppose it works out even --- or it would, if there weren't a hiring freeze preventing all the retirees getting replaced.<br /><br />I'd rather have money than breaks. I can't get money, so I'll settle for breaks. I think this line of thought is why we ended up with great benefits and shoddy pay.The Ubiquitoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08395703772492059721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-11652840164786396882011-03-19T18:46:11.206-04:002011-03-19T18:46:11.206-04:00Whoo Hoo...I am a high school teacher who thinks u...Whoo Hoo...I am a high school teacher who thinks unions can be evil at times. I was doing my student teaching in a rough, urban district and painfully watched as a massive, angry woman shoved a VHS tape into a television in front of her "Health Class" and ran a boring video, while she screamed obscenities into a phone during the entire period. <br /><br />These were at-risk kids who could have used a good health class, and I was so traumatized that she did this, and then by her comments at the end of class as we filed out. She took me aside and said, "Yeah, I am the union rep for this pod of the school so that is why I take phone calls during class. These stupid kids wouldn't pay attention anyhow.." I just shuddered <br /><br />I am a teacher for a system that takes into account merit pay, and I think we should certainly abolish tenure. What is the point of it at all? It is poisonous. <br /><br />That said, my husband is in high tech, and he has seen his share of lazy coders sit around on their duff after their company was acquired, as they watched their options vest. THey are not fired. People do not like confrontation. They will allow mediocrity to fester for much longer than it should sometimes. And these guys are paid twice to three times what most teachers are paid...<br /><br />MaryMarynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-79269634329135411772011-03-18T15:24:06.748-04:002011-03-18T15:24:06.748-04:00darwin wrote: "Where I'd differ is on th...darwin wrote: "Where I'd differ is on the idea that most managers want to be stupid and only hold back because they're afraid of unions."<br /><br />Well, yes, no one *wants* to be stupid. But some people just *are* stupid. And many of them, for reasons that still completely baffle me, become managers.<br /><br />JoelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-12454101552357797542011-03-18T14:46:48.533-04:002011-03-18T14:46:48.533-04:00I think managers are less likely to abuse and expl...I think managers are less likely to abuse and exploit their employees if good employees are valuable and worth keeping. It's simple economics. If the unemployment rate were very high, there would be people lining up to be exploited just to feed their families. Even with our 9% unemployment rate most people aren't willing to sacrifice their health and safety for a job. We also have social services which can keep workers somewhat picky about the work they take. <br /><br />Also I think most managers (or the good ones) realize that happy employees are more productive. It's always cheaper to keep an existing employee than to find a replacement. So there are incentives to being a nice place to work. Unhappy workers can also sabotage the business. I just witnessed this today.<br /><br />We had a contractor come out to bid on a small home improvement project, installing some interior doors. The price quoted was astronomical. Then as I was talking to the guy he starts bad mouthing the company. Talking about how the boss's profit margins are too high, and how his workers did a bad job on a project for the estimator's family. The estimator had the cost of putting the project right subtracted from his paycheck. So he was pissed. Consequently he lost business for the company, which I think was his intention. Moral, be nice to your employees.Mrs. Zummonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-39946765938064305722011-03-18T14:07:31.063-04:002011-03-18T14:07:31.063-04:00Well, and believe me, I have no problem with the g...Well, and believe me, I have no problem with the government regulating safety standards within reason -- of which "don't lock your employees in a room without exits" is obviously a no-brainer. Though, whether this is naive or not, I really don't think that most managers want to do that anyway. Just because Triangle Shirtwaist happened doesn't mean that most employers were that bad or wanted to be.<br /><br /><i>My boss at the time said, "really bad management will create a union. The workers are going to take care of themselves one way or another." I saw this attitude reflected in managers all over the factory - they tried really hard (and largely successfully) to build trust with the men on the line, partly because they knew it's the right way to run a business, but mainly because they were terrified that the UAW would move in.</i><br /><br />Well, I would agree with this to an extent. I do think that it's primarily bad businesses and bad managers who drive employees to form unions -- and that good businesses tend not to get unionized. (See, for example, Trader Joe's, which is both an outstanding specialty grocery chain with good prices and is un-unionized -- while paying their workers significantly more than the average grocery store.)<br /><br />Where I'd differ is on the idea that most managers want to be stupid and only hold back because they're afraid of unions. That just isn't my experience. Now admittedly, I'm dealing with office work, not manufacturing. Perhaps that's different. But my experience is that just getting and keeping good workers in the first place is hard enough that most managers honestly do try to treat employees well and keep them happy just in an effort to retain the best people.Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-81252129907684912852011-03-18T13:56:50.867-04:002011-03-18T13:56:50.867-04:00darwin, you make a solid point in your comment abo...darwin, you make a solid point in your comment above: unions are not solely responsible for the dramatic improvements in the lives and working conditions of ordinary Americans. Government regulations on business have also had a lot to do with it. Excellent point.<br /><br />Regarding stupid managers - I used to work at the one non-union factory that Caterpillar had in the US in the mid-90's. My boss at the time said, "really bad management will create a union. The workers are going to take care of themselves one way or another." I saw this attitude reflected in managers all over the factory - they tried really hard (and largely successfully) to build trust with the men on the line, partly because they knew it's the right way to run a business, but mainly because they were terrified that the UAW would move in. The current movement to strip unions of much of their power will have the unintended consequence of enabling stupid managers to keep their jobs. American competitiveness will suffer from this.<br /><br />JoelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-75522097136210996992011-03-18T13:26:20.872-04:002011-03-18T13:26:20.872-04:00As I remember, the big exploitations-- ever listen...As I remember, the big exploitations-- ever listen to "16 tons"?-- are illegal without counting unions, as is <i>locking your employees into a room and not having sufficient safety exits.</i><br /><br />I'd say unions are far more likely to exploit workers, especially when one is <i>forced</i> to join and people who flatly <i>refuse</i> to do their job are protected.Foxfierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161683096247890834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-68879251129156700322011-03-18T13:19:35.075-04:002011-03-18T13:19:35.075-04:00Joel,
Yes, I'm aware of the Triangle Shirtwai...Joel,<br /><br />Yes, I'm aware of the Triangle Shirtwaist Company. (Side note, that particular incident has become such a major historical event for some people that the children's non fiction section of our library back in Texas had more books about the Triangle Shirtwaist fire than it did about the Civil War. Whether this reflects their relative historical importance is, I suppose, a question open to interpretation.)<br /><br />However, I don't see how one can lay all the changes in the workplace since the worst employers in the worst days of the 19th century at the doorstep of unions. At no point in US history have most US workers belonged to unions, and indeed, union membership peaked long <i>after</i> most of those kind of abuses were eliminated.<br /><br />Further, I've always been fortunate enough to work in non-union workplaces, and although I've had a couple of managers I considered stupid or incompetent (it was one of these who inadvertently set in motion the events that landed us with a new job in Ohio) I've never had one who tried to "exploit" the workers under him or her.Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-40538136209248402582011-03-18T12:11:59.651-04:002011-03-18T12:11:59.651-04:00???
Darwin says he doesn't like how Unions ar...???<br /><br />Darwin says he doesn't like how Unions are right now in the US, but doesn't say anything about eliminating them.<br /><br />On the other hand, people most assuredly <i>do</i> suggest destroying or entirely remaking the military at the drop of a hat, let alone for real problems!Foxfierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161683096247890834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-12508829884825003362011-03-18T11:45:45.929-04:002011-03-18T11:45:45.929-04:00In the absence of unions, managers WILL exploit th...In the absence of unions, managers WILL exploit their workers. That is not a statement of opinion, but an observation from US history. Google "Triangle Shirtwaist Company" to get a taste of what things were like for the working class before unions, or read about how Andrew Carnegie used to treat his workers. Unions invented the weekend.<br /><br />It's true that unions can and do become just as corrupt, selfish, and damaging to society as the managers they are supposed to be holding accountable. But let's not overreact. When people see problems in the military they never suggest that we should just eliminate it or neuter it - that treatment is only prescribed for unions.<br /><br />JoelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-80932751323198051302011-03-17T20:32:30.060-04:002011-03-17T20:32:30.060-04:00Not just do less, but get away with not doing your...Not just do less, but <i>get away with not doing your basic job.</i><br /><br />We had a guy in my first shop-- we were military, he wasn't-- who deliberately failed the upper levels of training so he could only do a very simple, easy, <i>low demand</i> part of the job. He didn't do it well, and sat there reading most of the day.<br /><br />He'd been there eight years when they <i>finally</i> managed to prove to the satisfaction of the union that he was falsifying his time cards.Foxfierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161683096247890834noreply@blogger.com