tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post8384902053464861708..comments2024-03-14T11:50:14.761-04:00Comments on DarwinCatholic: A Latin QuestionDarwinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-69503723921266088582007-12-06T11:12:00.000-05:002007-12-06T11:12:00.000-05:00Oops, "ad substituendum gerundio", I meant to say....Oops, "ad substituendum gerundio", I meant to say.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-45753034742813773752007-12-05T15:37:00.000-05:002007-12-05T15:37:00.000-05:00jnewl:It is almost always permitted to translate a...jnewl:<BR/><BR/>It is almost always permitted to translate a participial phrase with an abstract noun + of + the subject or object of the participle. The classic example is "Caesar occisus terruit cives", the murder of Caesar terrified the citizens.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, the classic counter-example is "Caesar occisus cecidet humum". It does not mean, "the murder of Caesar fell to the ground", but rather, "Caesar, having been murdered, fell to the ground". <BR/><BR/>"Ad salvandas gentes" is in the middle ground, it could be translated either way. Literally it means "for the gentiles, who should be saved". But it could just as well be translated as, "for the salvation of the gentiles". <BR/><BR/>In this case there a third wrinkle, as american phoenix pointed out. Gerundive phrases are not just like other participial phrases, they are also commonly used as substitutes for the gerund: "ad salvandum gentes", to save the gentiles. Classicists consider the unnecessary use of a gerund to be bas clas, so the gerundive is very often used "ad substituendum gerundium".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-89241851554265533262007-12-05T03:08:00.000-05:002007-12-05T03:08:00.000-05:00I only did three years of high school Latin... eno...I only did three years of high school Latin... enough to translate some of Caesar etc at the time... but your problem is well beyond me. However, I was able to work out some genealogy more recently from a microfilm of a parish register written in Latin (for a parish in Ticino in the south of Switzerland) and thereby make my contribution to our family genealogy ;-)Kiwi Nomadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13351034705766073667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-74903599124246629882007-12-05T00:53:00.000-05:002007-12-05T00:53:00.000-05:00See my answer to this question: Ad Salvandas Gente...See my answer to this question: <A HREF="http://americanphoenix.net/2007/12/04/ad-salvandas-gentes/" REL="nofollow">Ad Salvandas Gentes!</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-3541158797805656822007-12-04T19:33:00.000-05:002007-12-04T19:33:00.000-05:00I haven't looked at Wheelock in twenty years, so I...I haven't looked at Wheelock in twenty years, so I'm even more out of practice than you, but my first inclination was to translate "ad salvandas" as "for the saving of." I know there's no genitive to be found there, but if the literal translation is "to/for the saving the gentiles," then to make sense of it in English would seem to require the insertion of an "of." Then you end up with "unto (or for) the saving of the gentiles."<BR/><BR/>Probably not a technically correct approach, but it got the job done :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-19635086414663052832007-12-04T16:09:00.000-05:002007-12-04T16:09:00.000-05:00It is quite common for a gerundive phrase to be go...<I>It is quite common for a gerundive phrase to be governed by "ad" to imply a purpose. I do not think it is odd.</I><BR/><BR/>Hmmm. Okay. Memory lapse on my part then, that's for sure. I'd done a quick check through Wheelock and Allen & Greenough for uses of ad with verbal clauses, but this must have been too basic to show up in the index, or I missed it. <BR/><BR/>I suppose that it makes sense that seven years of (until recently complete) disuse would undo most of what one can learn in nine years, but it's a depressing thought. What I really need to do, I guess, is make the time to power through Wheelock straight through again. After this long a lapse I'm sure it's needed.Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-6075900649525933042007-12-04T15:51:00.000-05:002007-12-04T15:51:00.000-05:00Populus Sion, ecce Dominus veniet ad salvandas gen...Populus Sion, ecce Dominus veniet ad salvandas gentes: et auditam faciet Dominus gloriam vocis suae, in laetitia cordis vestri.<BR/><BR/>"Ad salvandas gentes" means, as you say, to save the gentiles. It is quite common for a gerundive phrase to be governed by "ad" to imply a purpose. I do not think it is odd.<BR/><BR/>"Auditam" is a participle that modifies "gloriam". "Dominus faciet auditam gloriam vocis suae" means that the Lord will make heard the glory of his voice.<BR/><BR/>"Populus" is a slightly irregular noun. It is quite common for its vocative to be "populus" rather than "popule". In this respect it can be similar to "Deus" or "Agnus".<BR/><BR/>O people of Sion, behold the Lord will come to save the gentiles: thus the Lord shall make heard the glory of his voice in the joy of your heart.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com