tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post8443685721207189753..comments2024-03-28T17:53:43.541-04:00Comments on DarwinCatholic: Indoctrination and EducationDarwinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-61325622966684378542011-07-25T00:09:41.805-04:002011-07-25T00:09:41.805-04:00I agree, and it was the point I was trying to make...I agree, and it was the point I was trying to make in my original post. Children cannot be expected to constantly sift truth from fiction, especially in a place where they spend many hours of each day.elena maria vidalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129629173535139807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-82243928245209865642011-07-23T22:07:14.016-04:002011-07-23T22:07:14.016-04:00I think Amber and Gail make a fairly key point -- ...I think Amber and Gail make a fairly key point -- I think there's a serious limit to how much critical thinking one can get out of younger kids. And, to be honest, there's a limit to how much critical thinking anyone can do when what's being messed with is their entire pool of available information. <br /><br />Pretty clearly, the point of the California legislation is that kids get the general idea, "Gay, lesbian, bisexual and transexual people are nice and normal people who make important and positive contributions to our society." <br /><br />That general impression is probably going to be pretty successfully conveyed (though it's also certainly possible for parents to do a better job of teaching their kids than the schools, and for kids to thus latch on to their parents' interpretive filter rather than the one they're getting in school) regardless of how much kids say, "Really?" when they're being taught things in class.<br /><br />Plus -- I just don't think the, "Here are a bunch of positive role models we should admire" approach to teaching history is a good one. It leads to way too much tendency to filter out the parts of real people that we don't like. (Look, for example, at all the aspects of Helen Keller's real life opinions and activities which don't make it into the childhood hagiographies.)<br /><br />Kyle,<br /><br />FWIW, I'd tend to go even further and say there simply shouldn't be government run schools with government set school standards -- it creates too much conformity (read: dullness) and tension in a diverse society. I'd rather see the money made available in as a voucher which students could then take to any sort of school at all.Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-56300032548060218862011-07-23T21:20:08.915-04:002011-07-23T21:20:08.915-04:00You are ALL leaving out a very important point: Ch...You are ALL leaving out a very important point: Children tend to think that what they are taught in school is true. Now, parents can of course teach SOME children to take SOME things their teachers say with a grain of salt -- SOMETIMES. But in general, unless the teacher is obviously batty, children believe their teachers.<br /><br />Hey, I was an honor student and when I was in high school, our advanced biology teacher was obsessed with Soviet research into ESP, which he told us about constantly. I thought he was nutty but there was probably something to it. He taught us -- in a lesson about catalysts -- that spontaneous human combustion occasionally happened, and I believed it until after I was married. I simply had no reason to talk about it again until then, when my husband and friends found it hilarious.<br /><br />If that happens with scientific facts, how much more likely is it to happen with social issues?<br /><br />If you are constantly telling your kids things they learn at school are wrong, odds are they will eventually roll their eyes whenever the subject comes up and think you are the one with the problem.Gail Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11740482509910163332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-64436314037334002312011-07-23T11:36:49.022-04:002011-07-23T11:36:49.022-04:00One other issue here is the developmental and cogn...One other issue here is the developmental and cognitive abilities of children - can you really teach young children, say elementary age, to truly think that critically about what they are hearing? I would suspect, based on what I've read regarding child development (and watched in my own kids) that this really isn't possible until much later. I think more likely what you can do is train a child to either not accept anything they hear or to parrot another adult's opinions as a sort of faux critical thinking. Neither of which is particularly good for a child's overall development.<br /><br />And yes, it does sound like a lousy way to go about studying history - the whole selection criteria for what is important seems ripe for setting up a system where history becomes no more than a series of vignettes about people who fit in certain categories, regardless of their actual importance in the grand flow of time.<br /><br />I am extremely glad that CA has the R-4 option for homeschooling and that I don't have to report anything to anyone so long as I fill out a form online once a year. But I do wonder how long this situation will last... And then what?Amberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12689104216675201913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-62456810585831728692011-07-22T16:48:02.385-04:002011-07-22T16:48:02.385-04:00I agree, Darwin. Kyle, your suggestion for parents...I agree, Darwin. Kyle, your suggestion for parents is great and I hope I hope you are right about everything else as well. Although I do think the gay issue should be left out altogether except maybe for high school students and then only when the topic relates to a deeper understanding of the person's major contributions, as in the case of the writer Gertrude Stein for instance.elena maria vidalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129629173535139807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-71912261864942910772011-07-22T16:35:28.410-04:002011-07-22T16:35:28.410-04:00My thanks for the links and critique. A couple th...My thanks for the links and critique. A couple thoughts:<br /><br />First, my suggestion to parents that they teach their children to see through indoctrination is not a substitute for long term work to change education policy.<br /><br />Second, while I support some standards at the state level and a few less (though also some) at the national level, I'm of the opinion that most decisions about education policy should be made at the level of individual schools and/or districts. (This begs more explanation than I wish to give here). If I'm right about the purpose of this California bill, it's something I might support (with some clarifications about age-appropriateness), but I'd prefer to see it issued as a district or individual school policy.Kyle Cupphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14607703830461449390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-38493716717575998682011-07-22T15:40:12.941-04:002011-07-22T15:40:12.941-04:00Elena,
Fair points.
I suppose all this might mak...Elena,<br /><br />Fair points.<br /><br />I suppose all this might make little more sense if one assumed that the majority of the "history" that will be taught will be about the period since 1950 -- but frankly, I don't see that one needs to cover something as comparatively minor in historical importance as the "gay rights" movement until high school American History, and even there it's at best a brief unit (which I would be loath to trust a California public school to cover with any discretion or objectivity.)Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-75469785208691422442011-07-22T15:13:11.188-04:002011-07-22T15:13:11.188-04:00Thank you, you totally understood the point I was ...Thank you, you totally understood the point I was trying to make. As I told Kyle, who makes some great points as well, I hope he is right and I hope I am wrong. <br /><br />I am also concerned about it from the point of view of historical research. In Richard the Lionheart's case, it is theorized by some historians that he may have been disposed towards boys but is nothing proven. He never adopted an outward lifestyle that we would now considered "gay," not to the degree that Edward II did (and even Edward II begot many children with his wife, contrary to Mel Gibson's version of history.) But are young people going to be taught that Richard was bisexual when there is no proof that he was? I can see a lot of people being considered gay based upon rumor and hearsay when in reality they might not have been at all. In the meantime, Richard's genuine accomplishments (or lack thereof)will be overshadowed by speculations of what he did in his tent with his page boys, especially when in the Middle Ages people often quite innocently doubled up at night with servants and family members for the sake of warmth.elena maria vidalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129629173535139807noreply@blogger.com