tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post8650160888199553704..comments2024-03-28T17:53:43.541-04:00Comments on DarwinCatholic: Conservative Catholicism and Liberal IslamDarwinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-56795284932137680772009-05-13T14:31:00.000-04:002009-05-13T14:31:00.000-04:00Bang Gully,
Sorry to be slow in replying. I'd wa...Bang Gully,<br /><br />Sorry to be slow in replying. I'd wanted to do so thoughtfully, and sometimes there's not much time for thought in the day!<br /><br /><I>There is absolutely no justification in the Qu'ran for any kind of earthly punishment for apostasy.</I>I would consider that a moral and humane understanding, so I'm glad to hear you state it. As you say, I think it's hard for outsiders to understand how some of these arguments internal to Islam work out. For instance, I posted this same piece on a group blog that I contribute to and got a response from <A HREF="There%20is%20absolutely%20no%20justification%20in%20the%20Qu'ran%20for%20any%20kind%20of%20earthly%20punishment%20for%20apostasy." REL="nofollow">a very polite Malaysian man who is a Muslim and explained to me that it <I>was</I> required by Islam that apostates be executed</A>. <br /><br />Now, if you asked me a bunch of questions about Christianity and then asked a member of the Church of Christ (a Protestant Evangelical denomination), you'd get very different answers. You'd even get some argument among Catholics as to what the Church teaches, even though we have a centralized spiritual authority to speak on these matters. So it's hardly surprising to me that Muslims would disagree, but this is what I was talking about as what Westerners percieve as "liberal" and "conservative" versions of Islam.<br /><br /><I>I have a question for you: Was the Inquisition wrong? That was the Catholic understanding of religious freedom. </I>Well, I would certainly say that many things which members of the inquisition did were wrong. However, there is also a lot of deceptive history circulating about the inquisition, so one must separate myth from truth.<br /><br />It has been the understanding of the Church throughout history that faith is only pleasing to God when it is given freely, not forced. However, at some earlier points in Church history it has been argued by many in the Church (and this was the motive behind the inquisition) that it is acceptable to use force to protect the wider society from heresy. The justification is: Teaching heresy injures those who hear it, and so protecting people from that injury justifies the use of force. This is been a topic of dispute through much of the Church's history, but in the last 100 years it has been pretty definatively taught that using such compulsion is in contradiction to human dignity.<br /><br /><I>Muslims beleive that Isa (aws) was a prophet and messenger, and also RuhAllah (the Spirit of Allah) and we revere and love Isa (aws) very much as we love and revere all the Prophets that Allah has sent. In Islam you could say "I declare there is no God but God and that Isa (aws) is his Messenger" and still be an orthodox Muslim. <br /><br />We also beleive that Isa (aws) will come before the Day of Judgment and kill Al Masih Ad Dajjal (the False Messiah)<br /><br />If Isa (aws) was the Son of God or part of a Trinity, where in the Bible does he in his own words say this clearly?</I>The trinity is something which is certainly mentioned a number of times in the Bible, though as a Catholic I would also consider it key that it is attested to from the very earliest writings of the Church (for Catholics, the Tradition [capital T] of the Church consists of the writings and beliefs of the Church throughout history, and if I understand you right it is for us something like the Hadith). The main Bible verses would be:<br /><br />Matthew 28:19 <br />Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, <br /><br />2 Corinthians 13:14 <br /> May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.<br /><br />John 1:1-4,14<br /> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. <br />...<br />And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth. <br /><br />Romans 9:5 <br />Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. <br /><br />1 John 5:20 <br />We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. <br /><br />Hebrews 1:8 <br />But about the Son he says, <br />“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, <br />and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. <br /><br />Colossians 2:9 <br />For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-20378888638829357012009-05-11T12:11:00.000-04:002009-05-11T12:11:00.000-04:00Darwin,
I don't have a clue as to what you mean t...Darwin,<br /><br />I don't have a clue as to what you mean to even imply when you say "conservative Islam" in quotes. There is no such thing as "liberal" an "conservative" Islam. Islam is Islam. Liberal and conservative are conventional titles and it depends on the context. <br /><br />Your understanding of the apostasy issue is wrong and uninformed. <br /><br />There is absolutely no justification in the Qu'ran for any kind of earthly punishment for apostasy.<br /><br />Allah (swt) says in the Qu'ran:<br /><br />"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. " (Surah Al-Baqara, 2:256)<br /><br />You are most likely referring to the hadiths that clearly mention death for an apostate. Hadiths ,like the Qur'anic verses themselves, are interpreted in light of the events and circumstances they were revealed in or the circumstances that the Prophet (saws) spoke with his companions. There were certain people who would join the Muslims under the pretext of conversion but were really spies for the pagan Quraysh tribe in Mecca. Belief in Islam was the sine qua non of political order amongst the Muslims in a pretty much decentralised tribal society. Therefore , if one went back on their word, they were a threat. If for example, there was a treaty between 2 different tribes and one of the tribes broke the treaty, the punishment was death of all the male members of the tribe since they could not be trusted and the tribe who did not break the promise was actually in danger if they exposed their women and children to such treacherous people. In that context, apostasy was a form of treason. <br /><br />This also goes to explain why the Muslims, who sought refuge from the Negus in Christian Ethiopia, did not kill or even make mention of such thoughts against one of their own when he decided to convert to Christianity and stay with the Ethiopians instead of returning back to Mecca with the Muslims. He did not commit treason.<br /><br />I have a question for you: Was the Inquisition wrong? That was the Catholic understanding of religious freedom. <br /><br />If a Muslim wishes to convert to Christianity, that is his or her wish. If their family gives them a hard time, that's unfortunate but he has every right to live his life and follow his religion. <br /><br />As for the truth, one thing I've always wondered as an American raised South Asian Muslim is that why aren't Catholics considered polytheists but Hindus are? Hindus say the same things about their pantheon of Gods. "There is only one God, but many incarnations of the Godhead" So what if the Catholics say 3 instead of 100? It is still more than one. I have yet to be convinced that God would first of all fault man for something he didn't do (disobeying God in Eden) and in order to atone for this "sin" that God would send himself in Man's image to die for their sins? I am not even trying to be dismissive. I just do not beleive God gave a baby any fault in this world. God gave us life and gave us perfect souls. It is our acts which stake out our future, not the death of God or part of God! It just seems to be almost blasphemous to say something like this about our Creator. <br /> <br />Muslims beleive that Isa (aws) was a prophet and messenger, and also RuhAllah (the Spirit of Allah) and we revere and love Isa (aws) very much as we love and revere all the Prophets that Allah has sent. In Islam you could say "I declare there is no God but God and that Isa (aws) is his Messenger" and still be an orthodox Muslim. <br /><br /> We also beleive that Isa (aws) will come before the Day of Judgment and kill Al Masih Ad Dajjal (the False Messiah)<br /><br />If Isa (aws) was the Son of God or part of a Trinity, where in the Bible does he in his own words say this clearly?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06807800944482886838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-7008856362839402362009-05-11T08:43:00.000-04:002009-05-11T08:43:00.000-04:00Bang Gully,
I'm not sure where you get the impres...Bang Gully,<br /><br />I'm not sure where you get the impression that my objection to "conservative Islam" is that some of its adherents are fighting against US troops (or more often just plain blowing up Iraqi civilians indiscriminately, since that's much easier) in Iraq. I tend to think that the US invasion of Iraq was justified, however my objection is not that those Iraqis who believe otherwise are fighting the US. My objection to "conservative Islam" is, rather, some of its tenets which I think violate basic human rights. For instance, according to some mainstream interpretations of the Koran, it is required that if a Muslim leaves Islam, he or she be executed. From a Christian point of view, this would be doubly wrong, both because leaving Islam for Christianity would be seen as a good thing by Christians (rather than as a crime to be punished) and because according to the Catholic understanding of religious freedom it is not right to execute someone for apostasy. <br /><br />So my concern is not so much that some Muslims oppose the US, but that Islam itself commands come actions which as a Christian I believe are wrong. In this sense, Muslims who take certain elements their faith less seriously are in a sense acting more rightly from Christian perspective than the more orthodox Muslims.<br /><br /><I>But I digress. You mention that Islam is wholly against truth. What is the truth?</I>Well, to be precise I said, "the point of view of Catholicism, which asserts that while containing some truth Islam contains major tenets which are false." I would say that Islam is right to assert that God is One, all good, all powerful and all knowing. However, Islam does not reflect very important aspects of what I, as a Catholic, believe to be true. For instance, we believe the Jesus the Christ was the incarnation of God: true God and true Man. We believe that Christ died for our sins and rose from the dead on the third day, conquering sin and death, and that through His grace we can receive the forgiveness of our sins and the promise of eternal salvation. Islam instead describes Jesus as a great prophet, and not the last of them as Mohammad came later and provided the final and complete revelation from an Islamic point of view. <br /><br />So while Islam reflects some truths, it lacks others and asserts some things to be true which as a Catholic I believe false.<br /><br />Just as an FYI, you might want to be wary of using the phrase "What is the truth?" in dialog with Christians. In the Gospel narrative, Pontius Pilate says, "What is truth?" right before condemning Christ to death. In that context, Pilate is questioning whether there is such a thing as real truth. So the phrase carries a lot of baggage.Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-72411288115042788532009-05-10T23:14:00.000-04:002009-05-10T23:14:00.000-04:00Evidently Bang Gully isn't acquainted with the Pas...Evidently Bang Gully isn't acquainted with the Passion narratives--that concluding sentence was wholly unfortunate in this context.CMinorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07305306030099439903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-48491797425828907162009-05-10T12:34:00.000-04:002009-05-10T12:34:00.000-04:00I'm very confused about what you're writing about ...I'm very confused about what you're writing about in this post. You're taking examples of political actors in a war torn country (a country invaded by the quite modern, quite liberal America) and then talk about how this equates to Islam and Catholicism in a much larger sense. <br /><br />Your assumption is that fighting back or using violence as a means of political power against American forces is somehow bad. As a believer in God myself, I find it hard to beleive how that could be seen as bad. If another country invades your land, bombs your cities, and then tries to make your govt and steal your resources, you have every right and every duty to fight back. <br /><br />Unfortunately most Catholic conservatives I've met in America are either religious hypocrites who never oppose the status quo or maybe the idea that "man is fallen" leads to a cynical and negative view of human nature that says that fighting for anything good is not worth it since it is man's lot to suffer. <br /><br />It's funny how the older Catholics in America are very establishment. They are similar to the Saudi Arabian religious scholars who issue numerous fatwas about fornication and women can't drive but overlook that the rulers of the Kingdom do the same things and take the Muslims wealth and oppress the poor. Something the Prophets (peace be upon them all) never did. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Also I beleive certain Christians are jealous of Muslims in a larger sense because Muslims have not been religiously emasculated. We still maintain our religion in much larger numbers than the Catholics and Protestants, we have rules and regulations that set standard and guideways for our relationship with God. The Jews have this but only a minority of them follow this. Whereas the Christians have historically been led astray by denying the law and misreading Jesus (saws) message.<br /><br />But I digress. You mention that Islam is wholly against truth. What is the truth?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06807800944482886838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-22798375022926984392009-05-08T16:50:00.000-04:002009-05-08T16:50:00.000-04:00Christopher West would appreciate that!Christopher West would appreciate that!Tito Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12218771096085701665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-12772625305874873492009-05-07T00:22:00.000-04:002009-05-07T00:22:00.000-04:00Oops.
That was my post but I didn't realize MrsD ...Oops.<br /><br />That was my post but I didn't realize MrsD was the one logged in. Oh well... The two shall become one and all that.Darwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08572976822786862149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-15189172195135469452009-05-06T21:10:00.000-04:002009-05-06T21:10:00.000-04:00Whoa, do you know Darwin's jacking your work at AC...Whoa, do you know Darwin's jacking your work at AC? Or did you just post under his name there?CMinorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07305306030099439903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13522238.post-84016629617440688742009-05-06T13:19:00.000-04:002009-05-06T13:19:00.000-04:00A good illustration of why we should be less conce...A good illustration of why we should be less concerned with "liberal" or "conservative," "traditional" or "progressive," and even "orthodox" or "reformed," and simply concern ourselves with truth and falsehood.bearinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953735060133330755noreply@blogger.com